Lisa Finkelstein was so affected by her father losing his job in his mid-50s, she made studying age discrimination in the workplace her field of study. As she's gotten older it's taken on new meaning.
Having spent some time in the world of executive search and recruiting, I can tell you that on numerous occasions there were "private" conversations in the board rooms about a candidate being too old and over the hill to be considered seriously for even an interview. If the interview took place in order to show there was no age discrimination, other reasons were found for passing over that candidate preferring a younger, more vital one, in the opinion of the Board. Then I became an older, post-retirement candidate! That was around age 62 but I managed to secure some short term contracts after then, and one year-long as late as age 72. I am now 87 and still work part-time, independently of course. Age discrimination is alive and well in many quarters.
It’s the last acceptable bigotry, because no one is born immediately affected. We get used to the distinctions long before we qualify for being offended.
I got really sick of it in popular comedy over the last year or so. Blatant.
It’s very pronounced in medical staff too, they’ve ALL got your birthday. Every. Single. Document.
Indeed. Also - the greeting card aisle! We've started doing some research trying to understand how people judge others who make age-based jokes in the workplace about themselves or their own group and about others. Still trying to sort it out!
Ali, good point about how birthday is right up top of our records, making salient our age and adjusting the filter through which they see us. Interestingly, there is also a lot of younger worker stereotyping running blatant these days too. So many unfair generalizations all around.
Gary, thank you for sharing! Sadly not surprised, but so interesting to think about how suddenly we find ourselves on the other side knowing what goes on. Also, vitality is often a code word for youth, isn’t it? It does sometimes scare older applicants off from applying when used in recruitment statements - or gives them a hint what they’re up against.
From my point of view, at age 83, you are a just getting started. I think it takes till we're 50 to figure out who we're not. The journey from there is finding out who we are.
For anyone who didn't see DeNiro in the movie "The Intern" it is a must watch. He plays Ben Whittaker, a 70 year old widower who takes a job at a start-up fashion e-commerce company run by Jules Ostin the CEO and founder, played by a much younger Anne Hathaway.
A thoroughly enjoyable read. It’s funny how we don’t know the age of the author or rather the question of the author’s (your) age didn’t enter my brain until you revealed you were 56! You writing ‘reads’ younger- is that even a thing?
I’m finding - I am 57 - I think about aging more frequently than ever and it bothers me. I guess it’s a common feeling as we get older and into the latter stages of our lives. And have you noticed that it’s become harder to judge people’s age? I can’t fathom whether people are in their mid-thirties or late forties and people in their 80s seem positively ancient and yet feels just around the corner from where I am.
I feel wiser and bolder and determined to have my mid-life adventures as if I am building new visual memories to perhaps replace painful ones.
Yes menopause is a wild ride! It’s one of life’s greatest secrets and one that we have learnt about the hard way - why didn’t our mothers teach us more about it! (Perhaps because they were pretty much in the dark about how they went to crazy and back again)
It was a wonderful read to stumble across. I’m on holiday. I’m sitting atop a mountain in The Cévenne National Park in France and I’ve been writing about learning to ‘do nothing’ which isn’t actually possible - hence reading your piece. Thanks for sharing.
YES! “determined to have my mid-life adventures as if I am building new visual memories to perhaps replace painful ones.” 👍
I swear it works!!!
I did some delightful do-overs in some lovely locations that were formerly tainted by pain and now there’s mostly happy recent memories. Go for it Julie! Bon Vacance!
JulieAnn! Thank you for this wonderful and very visual comment. I’m actually on a beach vacation with my partner right now, so can’t complain, but atop a mountain in France - how fabulous! I also see this as a time for bolder adventure- but have also found I am much more delighted than I have ever been by really noticing the everyday wonder around me. I think a couple of my blog posts on demandtheshimmer.com might resonate with you. Thank you for reading my story and sharing this!
I find the generation wars rampant in social media to be so tiresome. The last thing we need in these divisive times is yet another reason to turn on each other. Gen X is down in Gen Z. Millennials feel ignored. It goes on and on.
The privilege angle is interesting because it extends to who should get to work. There is terrible resentment among young people that older people continue to hold jobs. They feel it is an encroachment on what should be theirs and there is rarely an understanding of someone’s economic situation.
There is also a lot of resentment and rancor towards older politicians continuing to run - but that’s a different story. Job related, but very different.
Fascinating topic. I actually retired via layoff during the pandemic. I knew someone or ones in my department would get laid off so I raised my hand to be “it” since I was planning on retiring soon, anyway. It was a great move for a lot of reasons.
I’m with you, Pamela! I have had the opportunity to give a few corporate talks and do some writing on the lack of support for supposed generation differences, but the fact they are so popular creates these divisions. Thanks for all these great observations and engaging with my work. Enjoy a wonderous retirement! I’m six years out before retirement and a new adventure.
You’ve probably heard the term, but as a play on “millennials,” older people who continue to learn, be curious, and participate in the fast-changing world have been called “perennials.”
This resonates. I've been blue collar my whole career. First it was "but you don't have the knowledge" then it turned into "but you don't have the muscle". While both were and are true, any company that can unbiasedly learn to marry all types of the workforce will probably be quite successful.
Thank you, Jim! Blue collar workers have been understudied in this work historically and I think it’s important we change that. There has been more work trying to understand how some workers craft their jobs to tweak how they do certain things to maintain longevity and how to encourage supervisors to help support this and provide needed tools. Thank you for engaging with my story.
Thank you for bringing in socio economic class into the discussion- it is important and overlooked. Also, YOU faced age stereotyping when people thought you would be in the same age bracket as those you studied. Great and thought provoking article!
Thank you, Robin! And yes - it was hard to gain traction as a serious researcher when I was 28 looking 18. I am giving a lot of thought to SES these days as my colleagues and students and I continue our work. Thanks for engaging with my story.
I have observed that there's a manopause too, as surely as a boy (or transitioning female) is transformed by the onset of a powerful hormone, testosterone, they are also quite as affected when it starts to diminish. Shh! Don’t talk about that!
I see this has been mostly swept under the rug and a forbidden subject in most places beyond gyms. Not fair!
Also, I had a transwoman housemate who would go on and off the hormones (they’re $$$) and hoo boy! was that a picnic to live with.
Red sports cars and rugs aside, women seem to get all the heat (😏) for hormonal changes and it is just not exclusively a female process!
Next time an aging male gets into conflict, watch how he’s given every break for being ‘still competitive’, ‘entrenched’, ‘jealous’, asinine even: anything but “oh it’s just his hormones today…”
It’s an obsolete culture contrast and ludicrous to me: the difference between sympathy for the aged-out weak lion and contempt for the dried up useless lioness.
Jul 22·edited Jul 22Liked by Sari Botton, Lisa Finkelstein
Thank you, Lisa! My father had his first heart attack at 50 and took early retirement from the US government position at his doctor’s recommendation at about 57. He didn’t have the downward spiral that your father had, but there were (and had been) other issues going on in his life that I have contemplated for years. (He died of a heart attack at age 61.) I have been writing about him memoir style for a couple of years now. In fact, I just wrote four pages in my journal this morning before picking up your article. It’s super inspiring to read your words and to know about your work. Our understanding does shift as we age, doesn’t it?
Etta!! I love this, and what a coincidence! I hope to read your memoir for him someday. Sounds like we have a lot in common. Thank you for engaging with my story.
I'm in retail, and the vast majority of workers in my store are in their 50-70s. One of my co workers is in her 80s! I know corporate would love to bring down the age level of employees, but just about every 20 something quits in a few months. It's not as fun as they think, and commission sales is not a joke. The 20 somethings also aren't thinking long term about insurance, PTO and other benefits, and the company saves money on them in the long run. Once the Boomers and Gen X finally leave professional sales, I think they'll finally have to have robot kiosks, because Gen Z is not interested.
Hi Pam! Interesting - what sort of retail are you in? Companies often think older workers are more expensive but when you factor in turnover, training, and absenteeism among younger workers it is sometimes a wash. Thanks for reading and engaging!
I work for a large department store chain. I think it's more image based, that they'd prefer a younger, hip staff to attract a younger customer. We are commission based, so we don't get a higher salary just because we've been there longer. However, four of us have been here for 8-10 years while the 20 somethings cycle through under a year!
Janice, I totally see where you are coming from! I chose old on purpose bringing it around to how my dad was considered old at my age at the start. Quotes perhaps would have made that clearer. I don’t think the term old should be derogatory at all, but an ageist society does perpetuate the notion that it’s meant to be unkind. One of the reasons I love Oldster as a name for this magazine- embracing the term. Thank you for the feedback and reading my story.
Instructive, readable narrative with resonance beyond your profession and personal situation. "Be passionate about the question, not the answer" is solid guidance for journalists too. None of us should get locked into expectations.
Thank you so much, Alan, for reading and engaging with my story! Expectations naturally color so much of what we see and do, but stopping to remember that and adjust course if needed is always a good policy I think.
“Be passionate about the question, not the answer” is a perfect principle for any research project, I think. Bias matters but can be controlled. It just takes effort.
In my mid-fifties, I had no notion whatever that any “ceiling” hovered above me, until one day an off-hand reference to my “stage of career” revealed to me that I was in one — at least in someone’s eyes. The insight made me think I might could share my expertise more sparingly with that outfit. But of course I didn’t. Who wants to be “that guy?”
Americans have always overvalued youth and undervalued experience. President Biden’s stutter never hindered him so much as when it began to be systematically misrepresented by the media as a sign of mental decline. Let’s just hope we do not pay a heavy price for that particular piece of underhanded foolishness.
Thanks for your years of research and thanks for this brief account of it. It matters — a lot.
Thank you, WR, for your perspective- I smiled at the idea of realizing “suddenly you were in one”. Thank you for the kind words and for engaging with my story.
I’ve been a therapist for 30 years and I paint a bit.
I felt this weird pressure to retire.
The pandemic was a trying time for all of us.,. And helpers esp .
Lately,though,I’ve cut my practice down to about 2 days and so far so good.
I work with a lot of young adults …. Finding they are looking for wisdom…. (Hard to imagine I have that since I basically feel like I’m just bopping along!)
Having spent some time in the world of executive search and recruiting, I can tell you that on numerous occasions there were "private" conversations in the board rooms about a candidate being too old and over the hill to be considered seriously for even an interview. If the interview took place in order to show there was no age discrimination, other reasons were found for passing over that candidate preferring a younger, more vital one, in the opinion of the Board. Then I became an older, post-retirement candidate! That was around age 62 but I managed to secure some short term contracts after then, and one year-long as late as age 72. I am now 87 and still work part-time, independently of course. Age discrimination is alive and well in many quarters.
It’s the last acceptable bigotry, because no one is born immediately affected. We get used to the distinctions long before we qualify for being offended.
I got really sick of it in popular comedy over the last year or so. Blatant.
It’s very pronounced in medical staff too, they’ve ALL got your birthday. Every. Single. Document.
I stopped watching comics because of the almost non-stop "old age" "jokes." Do they think they won't age out?
Seems many don’t…
It’s foolish of broadcast television to accept the tasteless jokes too. The ‘old people’ are a large part of their remaining audience.
Indeed. Also - the greeting card aisle! We've started doing some research trying to understand how people judge others who make age-based jokes in the workplace about themselves or their own group and about others. Still trying to sort it out!
Ali, good point about how birthday is right up top of our records, making salient our age and adjusting the filter through which they see us. Interestingly, there is also a lot of younger worker stereotyping running blatant these days too. So many unfair generalizations all around.
Absolutely. It’s good work to resist taking shortcuts in assessing anyone. At least in American culture it’s OK to look someone in the eyes.
Gary, thank you for sharing! Sadly not surprised, but so interesting to think about how suddenly we find ourselves on the other side knowing what goes on. Also, vitality is often a code word for youth, isn’t it? It does sometimes scare older applicants off from applying when used in recruitment statements - or gives them a hint what they’re up against.
From my point of view, at age 83, you are a just getting started. I think it takes till we're 50 to figure out who we're not. The journey from there is finding out who we are.
This resonates. I feel like I've been becoming myself almost by process of elimination.
That’s the Michelangelo process. Sculpture of the soul.
For anyone who didn't see DeNiro in the movie "The Intern" it is a must watch. He plays Ben Whittaker, a 70 year old widower who takes a job at a start-up fashion e-commerce company run by Jules Ostin the CEO and founder, played by a much younger Anne Hathaway.
Ooh, sounds great. I’ll check it out.
When that came out so many former students contacted me to tell me to watch, it was like my research come to life. It was great.
Yes!
Hi Joan! I love this so much. Thank you for sharing!
A thoroughly enjoyable read. It’s funny how we don’t know the age of the author or rather the question of the author’s (your) age didn’t enter my brain until you revealed you were 56! You writing ‘reads’ younger- is that even a thing?
I’m finding - I am 57 - I think about aging more frequently than ever and it bothers me. I guess it’s a common feeling as we get older and into the latter stages of our lives. And have you noticed that it’s become harder to judge people’s age? I can’t fathom whether people are in their mid-thirties or late forties and people in their 80s seem positively ancient and yet feels just around the corner from where I am.
I feel wiser and bolder and determined to have my mid-life adventures as if I am building new visual memories to perhaps replace painful ones.
Yes menopause is a wild ride! It’s one of life’s greatest secrets and one that we have learnt about the hard way - why didn’t our mothers teach us more about it! (Perhaps because they were pretty much in the dark about how they went to crazy and back again)
It was a wonderful read to stumble across. I’m on holiday. I’m sitting atop a mountain in The Cévenne National Park in France and I’ve been writing about learning to ‘do nothing’ which isn’t actually possible - hence reading your piece. Thanks for sharing.
Julie
YES! “determined to have my mid-life adventures as if I am building new visual memories to perhaps replace painful ones.” 👍
I swear it works!!!
I did some delightful do-overs in some lovely locations that were formerly tainted by pain and now there’s mostly happy recent memories. Go for it Julie! Bon Vacance!
Hi Ali! I love “delightful do-overs” - very poetic! Thanks for engaging with my story.
JulieAnn! Thank you for this wonderful and very visual comment. I’m actually on a beach vacation with my partner right now, so can’t complain, but atop a mountain in France - how fabulous! I also see this as a time for bolder adventure- but have also found I am much more delighted than I have ever been by really noticing the everyday wonder around me. I think a couple of my blog posts on demandtheshimmer.com might resonate with you. Thank you for reading my story and sharing this!
I find the generation wars rampant in social media to be so tiresome. The last thing we need in these divisive times is yet another reason to turn on each other. Gen X is down in Gen Z. Millennials feel ignored. It goes on and on.
The privilege angle is interesting because it extends to who should get to work. There is terrible resentment among young people that older people continue to hold jobs. They feel it is an encroachment on what should be theirs and there is rarely an understanding of someone’s economic situation.
There is also a lot of resentment and rancor towards older politicians continuing to run - but that’s a different story. Job related, but very different.
Fascinating topic. I actually retired via layoff during the pandemic. I knew someone or ones in my department would get laid off so I raised my hand to be “it” since I was planning on retiring soon, anyway. It was a great move for a lot of reasons.
I’m with you, Pamela! I have had the opportunity to give a few corporate talks and do some writing on the lack of support for supposed generation differences, but the fact they are so popular creates these divisions. Thanks for all these great observations and engaging with my work. Enjoy a wonderous retirement! I’m six years out before retirement and a new adventure.
You’ve probably heard the term, but as a play on “millennials,” older people who continue to learn, be curious, and participate in the fast-changing world have been called “perennials.”
I had not heard that! As much as I dislike generational generalizations, that’s a clever term meant positively.
This resonates. I've been blue collar my whole career. First it was "but you don't have the knowledge" then it turned into "but you don't have the muscle". While both were and are true, any company that can unbiasedly learn to marry all types of the workforce will probably be quite successful.
Thank you, Jim! Blue collar workers have been understudied in this work historically and I think it’s important we change that. There has been more work trying to understand how some workers craft their jobs to tweak how they do certain things to maintain longevity and how to encourage supervisors to help support this and provide needed tools. Thank you for engaging with my story.
Thank you for bringing in socio economic class into the discussion- it is important and overlooked. Also, YOU faced age stereotyping when people thought you would be in the same age bracket as those you studied. Great and thought provoking article!
Thank you, Robin! And yes - it was hard to gain traction as a serious researcher when I was 28 looking 18. I am giving a lot of thought to SES these days as my colleagues and students and I continue our work. Thanks for engaging with my story.
I have observed that there's a manopause too, as surely as a boy (or transitioning female) is transformed by the onset of a powerful hormone, testosterone, they are also quite as affected when it starts to diminish. Shh! Don’t talk about that!
I see this has been mostly swept under the rug and a forbidden subject in most places beyond gyms. Not fair!
Also, I had a transwoman housemate who would go on and off the hormones (they’re $$$) and hoo boy! was that a picnic to live with.
Red sports cars and rugs aside, women seem to get all the heat (😏) for hormonal changes and it is just not exclusively a female process!
Next time an aging male gets into conflict, watch how he’s given every break for being ‘still competitive’, ‘entrenched’, ‘jealous’, asinine even: anything but “oh it’s just his hormones today…”
It’s an obsolete culture contrast and ludicrous to me: the difference between sympathy for the aged-out weak lion and contempt for the dried up useless lioness.
We’re better than that by now, surely.
There sure is. It’s called andropause. Many people don’t realize it exists.
Thank you!
Now to look up the definitive vetted medical symptoms, keeping the comedy at arm’s length for awhile…
Thank you, Lisa! My father had his first heart attack at 50 and took early retirement from the US government position at his doctor’s recommendation at about 57. He didn’t have the downward spiral that your father had, but there were (and had been) other issues going on in his life that I have contemplated for years. (He died of a heart attack at age 61.) I have been writing about him memoir style for a couple of years now. In fact, I just wrote four pages in my journal this morning before picking up your article. It’s super inspiring to read your words and to know about your work. Our understanding does shift as we age, doesn’t it?
Thank you and Sari for sharing!
Etta!! I love this, and what a coincidence! I hope to read your memoir for him someday. Sounds like we have a lot in common. Thank you for engaging with my story.
Three unobtrusive little dots over to the right of “share” after your comment allows you to edit it.
Thanks. I tried that but other options showed up on my phone. I will try again. Worked this time!
I'm in retail, and the vast majority of workers in my store are in their 50-70s. One of my co workers is in her 80s! I know corporate would love to bring down the age level of employees, but just about every 20 something quits in a few months. It's not as fun as they think, and commission sales is not a joke. The 20 somethings also aren't thinking long term about insurance, PTO and other benefits, and the company saves money on them in the long run. Once the Boomers and Gen X finally leave professional sales, I think they'll finally have to have robot kiosks, because Gen Z is not interested.
Hi Pam! Interesting - what sort of retail are you in? Companies often think older workers are more expensive but when you factor in turnover, training, and absenteeism among younger workers it is sometimes a wash. Thanks for reading and engaging!
I work for a large department store chain. I think it's more image based, that they'd prefer a younger, hip staff to attract a younger customer. We are commission based, so we don't get a higher salary just because we've been there longer. However, four of us have been here for 8-10 years while the 20 somethings cycle through under a year!
Old at 56? How about older? At least put air quotes around "old."
Nothing like perpetuating ageism!
It's all relative. We're all the oldest we've ever been.
Indeed!
Janice, I totally see where you are coming from! I chose old on purpose bringing it around to how my dad was considered old at my age at the start. Quotes perhaps would have made that clearer. I don’t think the term old should be derogatory at all, but an ageist society does perpetuate the notion that it’s meant to be unkind. One of the reasons I love Oldster as a name for this magazine- embracing the term. Thank you for the feedback and reading my story.
Thank you for responding and explaining. It's possible my being 80 played into this.I still work full-time and have an
active lifestyle, as do several of my Medicare-aged therapy
clients. I did enjoy your story and admire your commitment
to fight age discrimination.
Instructive, readable narrative with resonance beyond your profession and personal situation. "Be passionate about the question, not the answer" is solid guidance for journalists too. None of us should get locked into expectations.
Thank you so much, Alan, for reading and engaging with my story! Expectations naturally color so much of what we see and do, but stopping to remember that and adjust course if needed is always a good policy I think.
So appreciate your send!!
“Be passionate about the question, not the answer” is a perfect principle for any research project, I think. Bias matters but can be controlled. It just takes effort.
In my mid-fifties, I had no notion whatever that any “ceiling” hovered above me, until one day an off-hand reference to my “stage of career” revealed to me that I was in one — at least in someone’s eyes. The insight made me think I might could share my expertise more sparingly with that outfit. But of course I didn’t. Who wants to be “that guy?”
Americans have always overvalued youth and undervalued experience. President Biden’s stutter never hindered him so much as when it began to be systematically misrepresented by the media as a sign of mental decline. Let’s just hope we do not pay a heavy price for that particular piece of underhanded foolishness.
Thanks for your years of research and thanks for this brief account of it. It matters — a lot.
Thank you, WR, for your perspective- I smiled at the idea of realizing “suddenly you were in one”. Thank you for the kind words and for engaging with my story.
Thanks for this insightful post! I find the aspect of "Mesearch" very enlightening.
Thank you, Joe! I’ve always gotten a kick out of the term. I appreciate your comment and thanks for reading my story.
Really really interesting and very important work!
Thank you so much, Mimi, for the kind words and for engaging with my story.
I’ve been a therapist for 30 years and I paint a bit.
I felt this weird pressure to retire.
The pandemic was a trying time for all of us.,. And helpers esp .
Lately,though,I’ve cut my practice down to about 2 days and so far so good.
I work with a lot of young adults …. Finding they are looking for wisdom…. (Hard to imagine I have that since I basically feel like I’m just bopping along!)
One of the secrets to adulthood is that we are all often still trying to figure it all out!!
I’m a queenager
Love that term.