Ask a Sober Oldster #35: Anne Lamott
"When I first got sober, there was somebody, an oldster, who said to me that at the end he was deteriorating faster than he could lower his standards. And that was the point I got to..."
This monthly interview series is a collaboration between Oldster Magazine and The Small Bow, A.J. Daulerio’s excellent newsletter and podcast about recovery and mental health, and appears in both newsletters. Learn more about this collaboration in this Oldster podcast/videocast episode.
Anne Lamott is the author of seven novels, Hard Laughter, Rosie, Joe Jones, Blue Shoe, All New People, Crooked Little Heart, and Imperfect Birds. She has also written several bestselling books of nonfiction, including, Operating Instructions, an account of life as a single mother during her son’s first year; Some Assembly Required: A Journal of My Son's First Son; and the classic book on writing; Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life. She recently collaborated with her husband Neal Allen on the nationally bestselling Good Writing: 36 Ways to Improve Your Sentences.
Lamott has been honored with a Guggenheim Fellowship, and has taught at UC Davis, as well as at writing conferences across the country. Academy Award-winning filmmaker Freida Mock has made a documentary on Lamott, entitled Bird by Bird with Annie (1999). She has also been inducted into the California Hall of Fame, and is a columnist for the Washington Post.
She publishes the newsletter Hallelujah Anyway. This interview was conducted via Zoom.
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How old are you, and how long have you been in recovery?
I’m 72, and I’ve been in recovery since 1986.
How did you get there?
I bottomed out. When I first got sober, there was somebody, an oldster, who said to me that at the end he was deteriorating faster than he could lower his standards. And that was the point I got to, and that gave me the willingness to ask a friend to take me along to a recovery room.
What are the best things about being in recovery?
Oh, my God, the best thing is being alive. The best thing is getting to start my life over, and find ways, and encouragement to heal the wreckage of my past, and all the horrible mistakes, and decisions, and betrayals I’d done while drunk and stoned. And being in recovery means that no matter what comes up, I’m on this spiritual path with a little light to see by, and these incredible companions. And so I know that no matter what happens, God, my friends, and the group of drunks are going to see me through if I just don’t pick up a drink or a drug.
I had a shoebox full of pills when I got sober, a Nike box. I can still picture it. It was just a heartbreaker because I love speed. I had tons of speed pills, Black Beauties. I had a ton of Valium, and Halcyon, and I remember on about my third day, I hadn’t taken anything. And then this woman who ended up being my sponsor and I started speaking, and she let it be known that I wasn’t going to be taking the pills. I couldn’t believe it. I thought, This is so harsh, and weird.
What’s hard about being in recovery?
Well, there are times that I'd really like to numb out, numb my feelings, or I'd like to really change reality. We just had a really complicated family drama involving all of us, and it was so painful. And I would've loved to have taken a Percocet with a tumbler full of wine, and just not had to feel the grief, and the shame, and the fear of having a really tricky family thing unfold. Wednesday I have to do this miserable, miserable dental thing, and I just won't get to numb out for that either.
I take Novocaine. My dentist doesn’t use any gas, which I would probably use because this is so bad, but she doesn’t have it. So, I’ll have a lot of Novocaine, and I’ll take three dual actions before I go there, three Advil, and three Tylenol. I’ve had to take drugs over the 40 years where there’s been a certain amount of pain, but I took them as prescribed, and I threw them out when the pain went away.
I mean, I had a shoebox full of pills when I got sober, a Nike box. I can still picture it. It was just a heartbreaker because I love speed. I had tons of speed pills, Black Beauties. I had a ton of Valium, and Halcyon, and I remember on about my third day, I hadn’t taken anything. And then this woman who ended up being my sponsor and I started speaking, and she let it be known that I wasn’t going to be taking the pills. I couldn’t believe it. I thought, This is so harsh, and weird.
I did a bad thing ecologically, but I didn’t know it at the time: I was living on a houseboat, and I poured them off the side of the houseboat.
How has your character changed? What’s better about you?
Well, I don’t lie, cheat, and steal, and I don’t sleep with other people’s boyfriends anymore for a start. I used to always steal. If people had cancer, or some ongoing pain thing, I would really help myself to their meds, to their opiates, because I’d think it’s so easy for them to get more, and it’s so hard for poor me who has no cancer.
What do you still need to work on? What “character defects” do you still wrestle with?
Oh, God, so many. I’m so judgmental of other people, and of myself. I have a lot of catastrophic thinking that dates back to very early childhood, and it seems to be a place that I land if I’m stressed, or triggered. I can be whiny. I can sulk. My husband says I sulk. He gets mad. He has a temper, and I don’t. I sulk. I weaponize silence.
Being in recovery means that no matter what comes up, I’m on this spiritual path with a little light to see by, and these incredible companions. And so I know that no matter what happens, God, my friends, and the group of drunks are going to see me through if I just don’t pick up a drink or a drug.
What’s the best recovery memoir you’ve ever read? Tell us what you liked about it.
So many, but I especially love Lit by Mary Karr, Wishful Drinking by Carrie Fisher, Drinking: A Love Story by Carolyn Knapp.
What are some memorable sober moments?
I remember getting my 90-day chip, and at this huge meeting in Marin, there’s 200 people, and it’s like a cross between Special Olympics, and a Southern Bible revival tent. It was so beautiful. More beautiful than I can even express. I could not believe that I had gone 90 days without picking up a drink, and that everybody was cheering for me.
And what about that night was also so profound was that when the people got their 30-day chips, I was tearing up because I was so glad for them. And that was not a feeling I’d been having much of when I was drunk, of tearing up because of other people’s blessings.
Are you in therapy? On meds? Tell us about that.
I had thousands of years of therapy, and I really have a lot of other disorders we haven't even touched on. I've had a lifelong eating disorder, and I've had a lot of healing, and a lot of help. I mean, I think 25 of my 40 years I've been actively in therapy. I'm not currently.
I don’t lie, cheat, and steal, and I don’t sleep with other people’s boyfriends anymore. I used to always steal. If people had cancer, or some ongoing pain thing, I would really help myself to their meds, to their opiates, because I’d think it’s so easy for them to get more, and it’s so hard for poor me who has no cancer.
What sort of activities or groups do you participate in to help your recovery? (i.e. swimming, 12-step, meditation, et cetera.)
I wake up, and I pray to just not be a jerk that day. I never remember to pray to stay sober because I go to a lot of meetings. I meditate with hilariously incompetent results, but I do it. I always heard when all else fails, follow instructions.
In the 80s, people used to always say, “If you want what we have, do what we do.” And they worked the steps, they did the inventories, they prayed, and meditated, they went to lots of meetings, they got a sponsor. And so I do all of those things to this day, really just as much as I ever did because I just love it so much. It’s been great being sober. The world of recovery has been the great love of my life.
Wow. Anne Lamott on Sober Oldster. When my son was born (about Sam's age) and it wasn't going for me as described in "What to Expect When You're Expecting," I found Operating Instructions at my local Barnes and Noble. You saved me then, and your honest and candid writing still saves me now. Thank you.
Anne, I love you so, so much. Thank you for this. Thank you for your humor, your spirituality, your words, your recovery. You're my inspiration, and I'm jealous that I have to share you with the world.